Suzume

Civilian System

18 posts in this topic

Hello! So, based on conversations in the chatbox and through PM, I've been referred to this forum so we can have an open and friendly conversation about this facet of the system as it stands.

 

Right now, there is no viable reason to be a civilian. This is not to say I'm not going to merrily continue being a civilian and want to discourage anyone from making more civilians. I am simply providing a list of things I have noticed through my reading of the systems as they stand right now. If anyone feels I have missed or misinterpreted something, please feel free to correct me or make an addendum.

 

  • No ranking system. Civilians cannot gain experience and rank up like a shinobi for practicing their skills in their trade. There is no mastery of craft.
  • No member groups. All member groups are focused on shinobi. (Not that this is bad, but perhaps make a catch-all category for civilian folks so that we know who is playing what kind of character.)
  • No missions. All missions are geared towards shinobi. This is fine, except there is no way for a civilian to provide services to their village/country and receive credit/reputation/etc. Nor is there a way to make a mission for others to take on the civilian's behalf without first being part of an organization.
  • No viable benefits. Any shinobi who picks up a specialty in any field that requires a weapon or tool may simply make or repair their own. There is no viable need for a civilian within the guidelines of the system.
  • No funding. A civilian does not receive starting ryo. This is not in itself a problem unless the civilian wants to use money to jump-start their anything.
  • No method of attaining funding. There is currently no option to have a business or advertise for one's services. This must be done through word of mouth. Again, not necessarily a bad thing depending on the circumstance.
  • No bloodline or clan. As far as my reading can tell, a civilian cannot have a bloodline even as a carrier. Applying for bloodlines or clans currently appears to be synonymous with jutsu and thus removes civilians from application.
  • Specialties are biased. Said specialties do not exist in the application and are implied instead of stated. Further, a civilian only has the option of one specialty (they cannot rank up to gain more) with one set bonus. There is no scale of craftsmanship mastering that exists within their craft, such as grades for shinobi within each rank. All civilians are equal and can be outdone by even the lowest shinobi who has a specialization similar to theirs.

 

In short, from a systemic basis, there is no reason to be a civilian.

 

I am aware that on an RP dedicated to shinobi, the majority does not want to be a civilian. If one wants to engage in non-combative RP and craft things, it would probably be more worthwhile to make a shinobi of that specialty and simply be a pacifist. But the civilian option exists, and there are people who exist who prefer that route. Thus I am of the opinion that the civilian side of the spectrum may need to be revamped to be on par with the shinobi side or more benefits may need to be added to outweigh the current negatives.

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So in the shining world we inhabit a civilian can't really fight on level. They don't have a unique skill set, for instance a puppeteer can make his stuff better than a civilian could because understands it's use. And missions would never be handed to them because in our setting what could an untrained civilian be more effective at than a ninja?

 

so I guess I am asking for your opinion, what place does a civilian serve in a world of ninja other than someone to do some social threads with? You could start a business and interact that way?

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I apologize if my post is unhelpful, but my perception is that civilians were not a combat role. As such they have no need or use for things like Specialties & such. Albeit I would say that no bloodline is subjective, because you can use bloodlines to do various things non-combat related. Such as using a Byakugan as a blacksmith for quality crafting. Whatever the rule is on bloodlines and civilians, I do hope my example is taken into consideration!

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Within the confines of both canon and reality, civilians in a militaristic society serve to support the efforts of their soldiers of whatever kind. They do not exist to fight, nor have I ever implied they should. In the shining world as you so call it, civilians according to this system do have specialized skill sets. In this case, those skills are confined to Blacksmith, Tailor, Tinkerer, and Apothecary. Thus they spend their lives on one craft and one craft alone, unlike shinobi who split their skills according to the needs of their village or personal choice.

 

A civilian who has specialized in, for instance, the apothecary skill should thus be able to make medicine that is better than a shinobi who picked it up as a side bonus of their medical specialization. They should, by rights, thus be able to enter into an arrangement with their village for said production of medicine for whatever amount or time frame the village requests.

 

There is no reason that someone who uses a weapon would thus be instantly better at production than someone who spends their lives making said weapon. It is an entirely different skill. That person may know enough to utilize or repair it, but there is always someone who produced the weapon in the first place. This applies to both reality and the canon this RP is based from.

 

You could call it 'oh, the civilian is just there for flavor'. Ok. So where in Naruto canon do all the good ninja tools and weapons come from?

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For the ranking system, that is aptitude in chosen profession for civilians. I do believe reading something in the specialty system guide that it too is subject to the mastery system. Hence there are ranks: beginner, novice, adept and master. 

 

As for the necessity of civilians. I believe that part needs to be altered. Sure, puppeteers can make their puppets because they are the ones using them and designing them but there's a limit to what an untrained shinobi can make as compared to a trained craftsmen. Similar implications are intended for other specs, like buki. Therefore, for certain complicated puppets or better aspect weapons. Civilians should be incorporated. Thereby developing in the supportive nature of civilians. 

 

And for the mission, I believe just like shinobi. Civilians should be able to make their own non-combat oriented missions. Like, make a C rank axe from this material for a blacksmith. Missions can be made and should be made. Just not the combat types though. 

 

The part about businesses, isn't there already a system for that? I think there is. 

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I don't think shinobi should be limited in their crafting because you do have characters that focus on creation more so than combat despite being shinobi, my own is an example; Saisaki specializes in creating medicine and poisons as a medic which is her primary skill. Just because there's potential apothecary people running around doesn't mean she's devoted less time to honing her craft, she in fact choses that over the normal activities of a shinobi nine times out of ten. Procuring her supplies is something that is a part of her character ddesign and my RP as well. If you want to make civilian crafters, awesome, but don't penalize the people that make up the core of the universe because of a niche desire.

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I mean we are never limiting a shinobis ability to create their stuff. That's debilitating to the core game mechanic here so that's that. So while your points may be somewhat valid, I could contend but it doesn't serve a purpose in the confines of the system, they won't be put into practice because they limit the majority population in a way that doesn't benefit the flow of the site.

 

You are are free to make D-Rank civilian missions and tag them as such if you'd like. 

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You two do make a good point. I realize that the majority may not like what I'm suggesting. Honestly, my character wouldn't have remained unaffected either. Regardless, I understand why it cannot be done like the way I suggested it.

 

However, besides the 'necessity' of civilian crafters a lot of other things are still in place. Civilians can make their businesses, they do have a ranking system, they can make and thus go on missions. Since they have business, thus they can also generate funds. And finally, they really should have a color. Staffers, make em into a group. Pretty pwease.

 

So if you do wish to be a civilian, it can still be useful for people who wish to include you in their plot.

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I mean civilians should take full advantage of the business system, they can do missions to an extent, and should be getting the color of their village allegiance. But while this sounds harsh I want to stress that we don't want to put any weight into civilians. In the mind of staff they are a flavor thing and they should remain that way, not because we don't like people trying something different, but because the universe we have built is structured around conflict. Shinobi are inherently creatures of conflict, that being said a civilian is at such a monumental disadvantage in conflict that there will rarely be a huge role in those places for them. 

 

If a Bijuu attacks a Village they could role-play helping to evacuate people possibly, but they will be at the mercy of that monstrous NPC in the same way that an NPC civilian would be. If there is a war the Civilian would never join the battlefield, they'd be at home probably role-playing the supply chain but keep in mind it would be for flavor, no one would need to role-play the supply chain. 

 

By making a civilian in a world where the story is built around the Shinobi you are limiting involvement in future plots, missions, and your own interactions. You have the freedom to do it and if you can enjoy it I encourage you to do so, but for the foreseeable future we don't intend to increase their value in the world because we don't want to encourage people to have to have one, we want to encourage people to take a shinobi, do missions, fight for their village, gain rank and prestige.   

Edited by Drak
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Alright, so I am gonna say something here because you keep telling her to use the Business System and I know for a fact that it isn't even ready yet. Trust me I know, I was just checking yesterday because since I came to join the site, you guys have been telling us a Business creation guide is coming somewhere and yet there is nothing. So stop telling her she can make businesses and stop telling her it is one of the "Main big features" of a civilian because it isn't even ready, it isn't even open and available, so it might as well not even exist ._. So I can see why she is upset about that, because you keep trying to tell her that the main thing she can do with her character is something that even STAFF isn't sure how it should work.


Plus all you keep repeating is 'You should've just made a Shinobi, it isn't like we ever expected someone to ever pick a civilian' .__. If the option doesn't come with it's own choices, then it shouldn't even exist. And it wasn't even until this topic that I found out that Civilians don't have any starting money which, as it was said somewhere on this topic before, is just silly. Shinobi can have starting cash, even though they have multiple ways to get money, but the civilian doesn't get any... Because? If anything it makes more sense, for the civilian who hasn't been wasting money on Ninja tools and training, to have some starting cash and not the other way. around. 

 

All I keep seeing is people trying to drive home the point that civilians can't do shit >_> Well it is funny because she isn't trying to make her Civilian a Shinobi, have her go out into wars, or anything like that. She's only curious as to why she can't do things in her own village. Not only, as a civilian, is she getting left out of most of the fun but there isn't even any missions for her to do until she makes her own. And even then, they won't really be missions and technically any sort of mission she can't accept. And yet you still just ignore that >_> You still focus on telling her what she can and can't do. And the stuff she can do, AGAIN, she can't do without money and she definitely can't do until staff finally puts up that Business Creation sheet ._.

 

2 hours ago, Drak said:

...but for the foreseeable future we don't intend to increase their value in the world because we don't want to encourage people to have to have one....


Mind my language by why in the flying fuck is it an option than? If you don't plan on catering to your players that don't want to a play a Shinobi and just plan on bullying them into being a Shinobi anyway, then why the hell is the option even there? If you don't plan on letting people play civilians actually do anything, then why the hell is it there? >_> Flavor or fucking not, Staff Members, when you put something in there for your members to do and then try to have fun with, you can't then just shrug when they point out problems. "Yeah, we never really intended for someone to do this. Soooo, yeah. (Insert shrug)". You are like a game made by EA, with multiple purchases and filled to the brim with BS excuses why the game doesn't work properly and how it is somehow the person playing's fault, not the person who made the game. 

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Business guide is going up before Saturday so knowing that I can suggest she use it. Since you don't have that info I understand how you might get defensive but rather than being hostile you could ask. In fact it will likely be up in 24 hours :)

 

Now since you think I was unfair in my answer please give a constructive suggestion on how I should incorporate civilians into Bijuu attacks, massive conflicts, and ninja quests other than letting them rp being a civilian in these instances. 

 

The only thing we aren't doing is limiting shimonoseki from making their own stuff, other than that they can do what they want.

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Not much to add on this other than the fact you're putting civilians down so that shinobi can stay up. Kind of in bad taste too, while I get both side's points. So far all I have seen is a biased Saisaki talk about how she should continue to be the best at medic stuff, and one Drak preaching about why no one should be civilian if they hope to stand out here. What the heck? What the hecccccck????

 

In short, you could grant extra perks for the civilians that have nothing to do with combat, such as 'for every mission done, a civilain gets a bonus 200 ryo per rank scaling up' or something of the sorts. And yeah, that's a lot of money in comparison to a shinobi, but a civilian can't make much use of what they get anyways other than buy resources I imagine, at least until their creations are pocketed by, key word, other players. Also, to tell someone they are nothing but flavor is wrong, to my understanding, a civilian could become a samurai. Which is an actual thing on this site to my knowledge? And before you say that they can't, try and remember that in the samurai text, it literally states samurai are civilians lmao. They can be an actual threat. So don't put the whole context of what it means to take the lesser popular route down, instead of trying to hinder something. Work to balance it, that's all I'm saying. 

Edited by Marjada
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Limiting Shinobi isn't even her goal here and the fact that you think it is, just clearly shows you haven't been paying attention to her concerns or even more than what half of what I said, Drak >.> Her point about pointing out how Shinobi shouldn't be able to just make their own stuff, while valid and correct, would defeat the purpose of the system and all. I get that much, but what she is trying to point out for it is that Shinobi are able to go and do things that should only take a craftsman, shit gets stretched sometimes too, cool. But where is the cool thing you added into civilians to counter that fact? Where is their unique feature? They don't have one.

 

Like I said, they don't even have starting cash to even open a business. Which I'm assuming cost money, since it also costs money to buy an apartment. And those thing costing money makes sense, not poking holes or fun at then. I am, however, pointing out that by not giving a civilian ANY money you are basically making your players create a homeless person .-. They can't do anything with their living because, guess what, in the world of civilians money makes the world go round. And they have no real way to get it, at least with starting money you could argue it is suppose to be used for a business, to then make more money. But a Civilian is expected to do more missions than most Shinobi originally do, just to try and get their business up.

 

These are my points. Not that, even though logically, Shinobi should be limited in what they do. It is how you lot limited civilians and instead of trying to make the situation better, you are telling her she might as well have made a shinobi. The isn't For Honor, don't create for types of races with different warriors in each land just to tell the players that Nobu is the best to play with, god I don't know why you'd play as anything else. You haven't really even addressed the problems for the most part >_> You are just restating why she should've been a shinobi.

 

Also gotta love how I call staff on something and get issued a warning >> Democracy at it's finest.

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@Marjada, just to add onto the Samurai thing you are saying, you are right. I didn't even think about that but Samurai in the Naruto-Verse are just civilians that work their way up to the level of shinobi. They don't have conventional jutsu and usually only know one or two Buki moves, but they can keep on par with your average Shinobi and then sometimes you even get a Mifune.

 

If anything, it is like taboo for a full fledged Shinobi to go and try to become a Samurai.

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It goes without saying that with the site being fairly new the staff focus is going to be on shinobi which 95% of people are going to want to rp as.

 

however I don't think it's fair either to just say well we're not going to expand on the civilian rp options. Making them actually viable to rp as is going to make exactly 0 people go "oh I guess I'll be a civilian instead of a ninja then." Definitely don't take anything away from the shinobi and give it to civs but if people do want to rp as them and the staff don't have time to expand the system then just let the members do it.

 

have them come up with more things for civs to do and more things to make them viable and the staff can approve it or not.

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I will work on the starting cash thing, as I said she can make missions like anyone else, the business system is going up. I will add civilian perks to the list of things to talk about. 

 

That addresses everything you brought up I believe.  

Edited by Drak

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What was the decision on civs getting bloodlines? Because I could see it working within this system, if not for some trait given benefit, it could still be passed down genetically if a civilian and another player wished to start a family or etc irp.

Edited by Marjada

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I mean I wouldn't mind some bloodlines, for instance a Kaguya who didn't manifest the bone stuff could easily pass it on to an offspring. 

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